Jim Wilson:
Minister, welcome to Drive and thank you for your time, as always.
Marise Payne:
Hello Jim, how are you?
Jim Wilson:
I’m fine thank you. So big news overnight, the Australians and the Dutch took legal action against Russia for the downing of flight MH17 in 2014. Minister, congratulations on that. The families of those affected by this terrible tragedy also applauded it. Realistically, though, do you think we’ll ever get a resolution here?
Marise Payne:
Within the International Civil Aviation Organization, I think this is a very important step, and it is a step of responsibility, ultimately, because the Organization of international civil aviation is obviously the multilateral body that controls civil aviation, safety standards, airports process. And suspending Russia from this organization, which is a potential outcome, is a possibility in this process.
But as you said, it’s important for families, and for families, to know that this is not an issue that Australia and the Netherlands have given up on. This is something we continue to pursue.
Jim Wilson:
OK. 298 innocent people died when this plane was shot down, including 38 Australians. Russia continues to deny any involvement in this horrific attack. I mean, it’s absolute… I mean, I can’t believe how despicable it is, for the Russians.
Marise Payne:
It’s appalling. I mean, we rely on evidence and the findings of a very thorough criminal investigation, which was conducted by a joint investigation team. A team of investigative agencies from Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine. This was backed up by the findings of a technical investigation by the Dutch Safety Council. And the findings and evidence clearly show that the conduct that led to the firing of the missile that shot down MH17 is attributable to Russia. We relived that with the Australians, in a way, last night when we made that announcement, just to remind everyone that Russia’s behavior – even long before today – is not that of a responsible international citizen.
Jim Wilson:
OK. I mean, I guess we shouldn’t expect less, given that the same Russian administration is currently invading Ukraine. I mean, Vladimir Putin is just a disgrace, Minister. Are we closer to expelling the Russian ambassador from Australia?
Marise Payne:
Well, Jim, I think these questions have to be addressed in terms of what we are capable of – what we are capable of achieving by doing this. And I think it’s important – and this has been the case historically during times of conflict on other occasions – that diplomats have remained in place to allow those engagements to take place. But as I have already told you, and as I have told others, I absolutely do not exclude the possibility of asking for the departure of diplomats. This remains a matter under consideration by the government, as you can imagine. But I am aware that, from time to time, it is necessary for these communications to take place. We will monitor this. We monitor it weekly. We talk about it regularly in terms of the government’s approach. And it’s not something that has been chosen by other counterparts as a stage either.
Jim Wilson:
So, are you still seriously considering it? Is it still on the radar, until we kick the Russian ambassador out of Canberra?
Marise Payne:
Well, all options are on the radar and that includes whether we would maintain a continued diplomatic presence, yes.
Jim Wilson:
Admittedly, this Ukrainian conflict is not close to Australia, but we still strongly sanction Russia for its invasion and provide lethal aid to Ukraine, tell me something: what does the West plan if Russia takes the Ukrainian capital, kyiv?
Marise Payne:
I don’t think I can safely speculate on such things, Jim. But what is very clear from the steps that have been taken is that Australia and, above all, all partners who show such unity in response to Russia’s actions maintain this approach of continuing to impose costs on Russia. That’s why we continue to increase sanctions, that’s why we provided military assistance to Ukraine, that’s why we support the Ukrainian people with our humanitarian aid. These are steps that many partners are also taking. I know that our friends in Poland, for example, are bringing a significant number of Ukrainians and displaced persons from the Ukrainian population to their country, and many countries have also had to deport their citizens. So this is a unity of purpose, which we haven’t seen in a long time, on an important issue to continue to maintain the highest possible cost to Russia for these actions.
Jim Wilson:
How many Australians remain in Ukraine at this time during this conflict and are there reports of casualties?
Marise Payne:
Jim I can say at this point I have not received any casualty reports and I certainly hope that will continue to be the case as this is one of the most dangerous places in the world right now moment. And that’s why we advised Aussies to go in January, actually. What we have now advised Australians is to shelter in place until it is deemed safe to leave, but that is a very difficult statement to make because, of course, it is so diabolically dangerous. This security situation is more than volatile and deteriorating. We therefore continue to support Australians who are registered through our online mechanism. This represents approximately 330 Australians and also includes permanent residents and immediate family members. We also have consular officers in Poland, Romania and Moldova who are there, placed to support Australian citizens, their families and permanent residents who have also sought to leave Ukraine.
Jim Wilson:
Do we know if there are children? You mentioned the 330 Australians who remain in Ukraine, you mentioned family members. Are we talking about children?
Marise Payne:
There are certainly children within the family constructs, but of varying ages and backgrounds. And, of course, Jim, as I think I’ve told you before, many have dual nationality, many have been in Ukraine for a long time, many have relatives in neighboring countries such as Poland and, of course, have sought ugly . But it is very dangerous. We have been very clear about this and hope that these people and their families can stay as safe as possible.
Jim Wilson:
I speak to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Minister for Women, Marise Payne. Minister, there are reports that China is providing military aid to Russia to help it kill more innocent Ukrainians. Can you confirm it?
Marise Payne:
Well, I’m not going to speculate on the accuracy of these reports until I have more information. But I would say that the countries that directly support Russia in this illegal invasion would suffer the consequences. And certainly in a country, in the example of a country like Belarus, we have already taken measures in relation to this, in terms of sanctions. I know the United States has said there will be coordination with partners and allies on any such response and that Australia will be part of that coordination.
But I’m not going to speculate, again, on how those consultations would go. Media reports have been made. It would be very worrying if this is true. We cannot be in a position where we provide support – material support, economic support – to Russia at this point. I have clearly expressed our point of view on supporting Russia and the role that must be played by countries that have a voice with Russia, such as China, the role that they can play.
Jim Wilson:
You met the new Chinese ambassador here last week. Have you expressed your concerns about their ties to Russia?
Marise Payne:
I certainly expressed our expectation that China has influence, has agency, to encourage and advise Russia on ending this illegal invasion of Ukraine, yes. Because it is important that we tell all the countries that have this voice that this is a total violation of international law, it is a complete violation, a total violation, of the Charter of the United Nations. And those are opportunities that Australia seizes when we engage with countries that, as I said, have a voice, to encourage them to make their views known, as well as the views of international community, explicitly to Russia.
Jim Wilson:
Who initiated this meeting with the Chinese ambassador? Was it them or us?
Marise Payne:
It would be a normal meeting with a new ambassador, and I’m sure the embassy, in the normal course of events, requested this engagement. It’s an important meeting. We are very committed to a constructive relationship with China in which we can pursue areas of cooperation. We have always said, however, that we will remain consistent with our own national sovereign interests and focus on stability.
I have taken the opportunity to set out, frankly, Australia’s positions on a range of issues. This includes the importance of proper ministerial dialogue between Australia and China, as well as other high-level dialogues and engagements. The focus on stability in the Indo-Pacific, free and open trade, the importance of human rights and also the welfare of Australians detained in China. So I welcomed the meeting and this is an important opportunity for the Ambassador and for me to make these points.
Jim Wilson:
You mentioned trade. Do you think their trade minister will ever meet our trade minister? Could we ever see the Chinese end their trade war with us?
Marise Payne:
Well, we’re open to that conversation. And it is important to stress that Australia never said that we would not accept such a conversation. We have always said – whether in my case, in the case of the Minister of Trade, in the case of other Ministers – that we would welcome such conversations. And ultimately, this ministerial dialogue is a way to address differences and issues of concern.
Jim Wilson:
Minister, as always, thank you for your time this afternoon.
Marise Payne:
Thank you very much, Jim.
