Patricia Karvelas:
The situation in Ukraine has deteriorated further, with all Australians now being asked to leave the country by all commercial means available. It comes as NATO and the United States deploy more warships and warplanes to Eastern Europe as Russia gathers around 127,000 troops on the country’s border. Marise Payne is the Minister of Foreign Affairs and our guest this morning. Marise Payne, welcome.
Marise Payne:
Hello, Patricia.
Patricia Karvelas:
How many Australians are there in Ukraine and what advice would you give them?
Marise Payne:
Well, the advice is clear, as evidenced by our updated travel advice yesterday – that Australians in Ukraine should leave now by commercial means where it is safe to do so. We are aware that flight availability may change or be suspended at short notice, and certainly security conditions may change at short notice.
There are around 1,400 Australians, including family – so family units – in Ukraine at the moment. Our embassy has been in contact with them and we have set up a consular registration system for Ukraine for Australian citizens, permanent residents and their immediate family members.
Patricia Karvelas:
Are there reasonably available commercial means for them to leave?
Marise Payne:
There are certainly still flights available and flights in progress, yes. And that’s why we’ve taken the prudent step of suggesting that they make arrangements to leave now. This is a prudent and prudent step. This is because the security situation is unpredictable and it is about protecting Australians on the ground.
Patricia Karvelas:
Why has the Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued this urgent notice now? What caused such a level of concern?
Marise Payne:
I would describe it more as a case of consultation with like-minded counterparts in Kyiv and about Ukraine. We have done this with the United States, with Canada, with the United Kingdom, and it is important that we work together. We must be careful in the face of such uncertain circumstances. But I think it’s the right thing to do to protect Australians. The United Kingdom and the United States have also taken a very close look at their travel advice.
Patricia Karvelas:
Over 120,000 troops are at the border, Minister. Do you expect an invasion? Is it now inevitable?
Marise Payne:
I don’t think it’s useful to speculate that way. What I would say and what was the clear diplomatic message, not just from Australia certainly but from across Europe, including at the meeting of foreign ministers from the EU yesterday, the United States, United Kingdom is that all have called on Russia to take steps to defuse this situation, to remain engaged in a reciprocal dialogue on these security concerns following the recent series of diplomatic meetings that I have just mentioned.
We strongly support Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity and a unified response from Europe and NATO. This was extensively discussed at the AUKMIN Ministers meeting in Sydney on Friday with Minister Dutton and myself as well as the UK Foreign Secretary and Defense Secretary.
Patricia Karvelas:
A Kyiv spokesperson tweeted that Australia is one of four countries withdrawing family members of diplomatic staff to Kyiv and criticized it as a premature step. What is your response to this criticism?
Marise Payne:
I understand the opinion expressed by Ukrainian officials. But, above all, my role and our role as government is to ensure that we protect the dependents of our Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and other employees of government agencies and to ensure that Australians take steps to protect themselves. But above all, this decision does not change one iota our absolute and unwavering support for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. We’ve been explicitly clear in reiterating it, and I’m doing it again this morning.
Patricia Karvelas:
If Russia takes control of Ukraine, what will be the consequences for the world order? Could this trigger a major confrontation between East and West?
Marise Payne:
Again, I don’t think it’s worth speculating. But what’s happening here is authoritarian regimes trying to exert their power, their aggression potentially in relation to circumstances like this. And it’s not helpful to security and stability in any way. We have once again been very clear about this, as have several members of the EU, the UK and the US. And we have clearly sought the de-escalation of Russia’s behavior in this regard.
Patricia Karvelas:
What kind of support is Australia prepared to deploy if it gets any worse? Would it be military?
Marise Payne:
We said we would not participate – would not participate in military assistance. I had a very constructive conversation with the Foreign Minister of Ukraine last week, and I had another conversation with the Australian Ambassador in Kyiv on Friday evening, our time.
What we are asking our Ambassador for Cyber Affairs and Critical Technologies, Dr Toby Feakin, is to discuss the possibilities of Australia’s assistance to the Government of Ukraine in the cyber context. There have already been significant cyberattacks against Ukraine, believed to come from potentially Russian sources. And to be very clear, this is a challenge they’ve been dealing with for some time.
Dr Feakin has extensive experience in this area, and Australia has certainly worked closely with partners in the international community, including already with Ukraine, on cyber resilience and cyber security, and if Australia can help in that regard, we will.
Patricia Karvelas:
We already have a series of sanctions against Russia. Is there more room to move in this area?
Marise Payne:
These are still under consideration, and it is again a matter that was discussed with the UK Foreign Secretary and her Defense counterpart last week. This is a potential tool that Australia can use in concert with like-minded people to signal and express our very strong concerns about such aggressive behavior.
Patricia Karvelas:
Ukraine has complained about cyber warfare. Is this an area where we can help?
Marise Payne:
Well, that goes back to the role of our Ambassador for Cyber Affairs and Critical Technologies, Dr. Feakin, and the work we’ve already done with Ukraine over the past year. And certainly, following my conversation with the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the follow-up conversation with our ambassador, we will continue to pursue this in the days to come.
Patricia Karvelas:
Will Vladimir Putin get away with harassing Ukraine like this? Does the rest of the world have a message for him?
Marise Payne:
The rest of the world has a very clear message. The rest of the world has indicated that we call on Russia to take steps to defuse the situation. We don’t accept the kind of behavior you call bullying. We are deeply concerned about the military buildup on the Ukrainian border. The foreign ministers of the European Union again conveyed this message overnight. The United Kingdom, the United States, our friends in Canada have been equally clear that this kind of behavior is completely unacceptable from authoritarian regimes, that it is not a force that trumps everything in terms of the exercise of power. The rules-based order has served us very well over the past seven decades and this is unacceptable behavior. territorial integrity.
Patricia Karvelas:
We mentioned that we are one of the few diplomatic missions that urge these workers, family members, to leave Ukraine. But if you look at the situation now, we have other key groups – NATO, the UN – that have not expressed any intention to follow what the Ukrainian embassy calls premature measures. Do you expect them to follow suit in the same direction as Australia?
Marise Payne:
Ultimately, these are issues that concern these countries and groupings. The US has certainly taken similar action, and I understand the UK is doing the same. But ultimately, these are decisions for each country. Our priority is to protect the safety of our staff and their dependents and also to provide clear guidance to Australians on how to protect themselves.
Patricia Karvelas:
And the rules-based order you say has served us well – and that’s still Australia’s position – but it’s in decline. Is that what you say? That there is a fracture of the rules-based system?
Marise Payne:
No, I am saying that we have faced similar challenges since time immemorial. We have seen problems like this arise in the past and continue to do so, as evidenced by Russia’s behavior towards Ukraine. But advocating for respect for the rules-based order and advocating for authoritarian regimes to stop making situations like this worse is important. It is important to send these messages. It is important to engage in these diplomatic activities to ensure that the views of like-minded nations – in our case, liberal democracies – are absolutely clear. And Australia will continue to do so.
Patricia Karvelas:
Minister, thank you for being with us this morning.
Marise Payne:
Thank you very much.
